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[Megathread] XMG ULTRA 17 in 2020 (LGA1200, Z490, MXM)
the ultimate, the best, the superior... XMG ULTRA 17.
- Schenker put Intel’s 125W Core i9-10900K chip in a laptop [Liliputing]
- Schenker crams desktop-grade Intel Comet Lake-S Core i9-10900K CPU and Nvidia RTX 2080 Super GPU into XMG Ultra 17 M20 laptops [Notebookcheck]
- XMG Ultra 17: Core i9-10900K und GeForce RTX 2080 Super im Notebook [Computerbase] (German)
- Schenker baut 125-Watt-CPU in Laptop ein [Golem] (German)
- Gaming-Laptop der Superlative: Dieses Notebook ist schneller als euer Spiele-PC [Giga] (German)
- Data sheet and key features can be found on XMG ULTRA 17 product page at bestware.com
- Photos and overviews of the technical structure inside will be added shortly.
- We will accept pre-orders from May 13, 2020.
- Delivery and reviews are planned for the end of June.
The following sections deal with all questions and information that we couln't quite fit into the product page in the shop.
- Assembling (one handed)
- Overview of the Inside
- Thermal unit out in the open
- CPU Socket unlocked
- CPU Socket locked
- NVIDIA RTX 2080 SUPER MXM card
- They put a Desktop 10900K inside this Notebook - the Result is a Insane Heatsink and Power Supply [der8auer / Youtube]
- Schenker XMG Ultra 17 (Clevo X170SM-G) laptop review: Power without end [Notebookcheck]
- Wenn der Desktop 10900K in einem Notebook landet - Heftige Kühllösung und Stromversorgung [der8auer / Youtube]
- Test Schenker XMG Ultra 17 (Clevo X170SM-G) Laptop: Power ohne Ende [Notebookcheck]
FAQ - Frequently Asked QuestionsQ: What is the maximum power consumption of CPU and graphics card?
A: On the CPU side, the system is specified for a continuous power-draw of up to 125W TDP, which is exactly what Intel specified for the new top-of-the-line CPU Intel Core i9-10900K. We will only find out at the beginning of mass production to what extent and for how long this limit can be exceeded for increased Turbo Boost.
The NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER (Max-P) is specified by NVIDIA for 115W TGP, which can also permanently provided by the XMG ULTRA 17 under full load.
For the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER (Max-P), NVIDIA offers various VBIOS levels, ranging from 150W to 200W. We use the maximum unlocked stage with 200W, while other manufacturers may offer a reduced TGP stage without clearly indicating it. Some manufacturers also use the especially reduced Max-Q version of the RTX 2080 (Super), which has to be content with only 80~95W TGP and thus cannot come close to the performance in XMG ULTRA 17. We will always indicate the TGP levels our our dGPU in our product spec sheet.
Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 designed for permanent full load?
A: The power supply and cooling system of the XMG ULTRA 17 are designed for simultaneous 24/7 continuous load of CPU and graphics card, even in the maximum performance profile. The TDP or TGP specified by the manufacturer are to be permanently achieved, i.e. 125W (Intel) and 200W NVIDIA make a total of 325W plus additional consumption of chipset, up to 4 memory slots (maximum 128GB) and other components.
Q: How fast is an RTX 2080 Super (Max-P) with 200W compared to the 150W counterparts of other manufacturers?
A: It is faster. Due to the principle of diminishing returns, performance and power consumption at the top end of the scale do not scale linearly, but the additional 50W still means a significant power gain. How big the difference exactly will be, we will only see after the start of serial production, if competitors come onto the market with a 150W RTX 2080 'SUPER' by then. Unfortunately, the power consumption cannot be adjusted manually as NVIDIA does not provide an API for this in their VBIOS or drivers - so we can not manually test how our 200W GPU would perform at 150W power level.
Q: What is the maximum memory capacity? Do I have to sacrifice speed or latency when using 128GB DDR4?
A: The Intel Comet Lake S platform officially supports maximum 2933MHz (DDR4-2933). With the XMP profiles in the XMG ULTRA 17, however, operation at 3200MHz is also possible. In which configurations the top speeds are possible and which RAM modules with possibly lower latencies are supported, will only become apparent after the start of series production. At present we cannot yet make a final statement as to whether the peak configuration of 128GB (4x 32GB) can also be operated at 3200MHz, or whether it will clock down to 2933MHz or even less.
Q: What's the layout of the cooling system? Does XMG ULTRA 17 use a vapor chamber?
A: We will upload a picture of the cooling system layout shortly. There are 10 heatpipes and a vaporchamber. No matter which CPU or GPU option you chose, you will always get the maxed-out version of the cooling system.
Q: How loud are the fans at low/medium/high load?
A: Due to the energy saving profiles and the dynamic clock behavior of the Intel and NVIDIA chips, the XMG ULTRA 17 can be used almost silently for normal office and multimedia activities without any problems. Due to the massive cooling potential, even medium loads can be cooled away relatively quietly. In the pre-installed Control Center, the fan curves can also be edited manually - either as an offset or in a manual point diagram.
Final specifications for the different performance profiles (Power Saving, Quiet, Entertainment, Performance) and an overview over the pre-installed fan curves will be available approximately at the start of series production from the end of June.
Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 suitable for real-time audio/video applications?
A: With the help of our experience with the professionally optimised SCHENKER AUDIO-Edition, we will ensure that real-time audio/video applications with a large number of connected peripherals run without problems and without dropouts on the XMG ULTRA 17, even under high load. This includes stable low DPC latencies (measured in LatencyMon), firmware optimizations, a trimmed Windows installation as well as the broadest possible testing of high-end audio peripherals by our partner Arkaei.
Q: What is the logic behind the dual 280W power supply?
A: The XMG ULTRA 17 is supplied with two 280W power supply units, which can be inserted in a holding rack (see picture) which is included in every ULTRA 17 and which saves space and provides passive cooling thanks to the generously perforated outer wall. This overall concept has the following advantages:
- Since every user gets both power supplies from the beginning, later CPU and graphics card upgrades are possible without any problems, without the user running his upgraded configuration with a too small power supply configuration.
- The previous maximum power supply size was 330W, but this would not have been enough for the extreme configuration of the XMG ULTRA 17.
- Development and forecast/production of two identical power supplies is much more cost-effective than if two different power supplies had been developed for different purposes. It also reduces the risk of confusion during later upgrades or if the laptop changes hands.
- The CPU and GPU performance will drop down to Battery Mode performance, but without actually depleting the battery.
- In this mode, the system will draw only up to a maximum of 110W out of the wall socket, despite having a 280W adapter
- This will limit the CPU Package Power to around 30W. Enough for simple tasks, but surely not enough for serious CPU rendering
- The system will require the Li-Ion battery to be present and to have at least 10% charge
- With a single power supply, it won't be possible to charge the battery, even when the system is powered off
Conclusion: operating with only a single charger is useful only for emergency situations. Whenever using XMG ULTRA 17 in a productive environment, the user is required to bring the full rack containing both chargers.
A full comparison against current 230W and previous 330W power supply including model numbers can be found in this comparison table. Short version:
|Power / Type||x (mm)||y (mm)||z (mm)||weight (g)|
Q: How easy is it to maintain and upgrade XMG ULTRA 17?
A: The bottom service cover can be lifted off by removing just a few screws, giving free access to all components. Upgrades of SSD, RAM and WLAN and regular cleaning of the cooling system are expressly welcomed.
Exception: two out of four RAM slots are located on the other side, under the keyboard. When assembling customer orders with only one or two RAM modules, the banks on the underside of the notebook are filled first. Reason: in case of troubleshooting or if RAM fails and has to be replaced, the replacement can be done without removing the keyboard. On the other hand, if you want to add 2 additional modules after purchasing, you will have to open the keyboard. This is a fairly straightforward procedure. A clear service manual will be provided in our download area.
If you prefer that we install the RAM under the keyboard so that you can add two more modules directly after the purchase, please mention this in the order note.
Q: How does the self cleaning of the cooling system work?
A: The fans rotate backwards at full speed for a short time when the system is started. Dust and other foreign objects that have settled on the inside of the cooling fins are sucked away by the cooling fins and disposed of through the anti-dust tunnel. In the Control Center you can set how often this action should be carried out (e.g. either manually as desired, or perhaps only 1x per week).
Q: Is it really not possible to install 2.5" drives?
A: The XMG ULTRA 17 has four (4) M.2 slots, three of which are validated for the use of PCI-Express 3.0 NVMe SSDs. Measured in gigabytes per volume, M.2 SSDs have a significantly higher data density than 2.5" drives - hard disks included. Although the XMG ULTRA 17 is a fairly large case, it has a trimmed footprint (at least at the front and sides) compared to its predecessor due to the narrow bezel design (thin screen frame).
Almost the entire surface of the interior construction is reserved for the massive cooling system and the multitude of I/O ports. The rest of the space is used for the removable 97 Wh battery. This is more than just a UPS - the XMG ULTRA 17 can be operated on light load for several hours without any problems, even far away from the power outlet.
Further information and pictures on the internal structure and battery life will be provided shortly.
Q: Can the RGB LED lights be switched off completely?
A: Keyboard lighting and the rear RGB/LED lighting strip can be permanently deactivated separately in the Control Center. Alternatively, it is possible to simply disconnect the corresponding RGB/LED cables from the mainboard. With the keyboard, the backlighting runs over a cable which is separated from the keyboard key logic. The rear light strip has its own cable, which can also be easily detached from the mainboard after opening the underside of the laptop. If you wish, we can do this when assembling your order - just write it in the remark area when you order on bestware.com.
Q: Is it possible to use the Intel CPU graphics unit - either to save energy or to use Intel QuickSync?
A: The Intel Graphics Unit is completely disconnected in the mainboard of the XMG ULTRA 17 - it is not even supplied with power. This serves the efficiency of the laptop to a small extent (especially in idle), but it also simplifies the layout of the power supply for the CPU and dedicated graphics card.
This means that the laptop always operates in "discrete mode", so the NVIDIA graphics card works just like in a desktop system. This virtually eliminates any technical incompatibilities that sometimes occur with hybrid graphics solutions in notebooks. For example, it allows you to use ShadowPlay on the Windows desktop to record video, it support G-SYNC and Dynamic Super Resolution and it's unlikely that you'll ever run into any VR compatibility issues on this machine.
The same is true for our XMG NEO and PRO series where MSHybrid can be deactivated and for XMG APEX 15 where the iGPU is not connected either.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to use Intel QuickSync with this solution. For hardware acceleration of video encoding, we recommend using NVEnc on the GeForce RTX graphics card. Thankfully, Adobe has recently announced that they will roll-out NVEnc support for video encoding in Adobe Premiere Pro this year.
The discontinuation of iGPU support means that you can also use the so-called "F" processors from Intel, such as the i9-9900KF. These "F" variants are supplied without iGPU, but are otherwise identical in terms of price and performance to their non-F counterparts. In the past, it has happened that certain "K" processors were not available on the market due to Intel's 14nm supply issues, while "KF" was available in good numbers.
By the way: the "F" variants do not leave out the iGPU - it is simply deactivated. It is assumed that Intel can use chips whose iGPUs fall out of the series in the factory internal validation test. This is similar to how an 8-core is sold as a 6-core if 1 or 2 cores do not perform as they should. But, fun fact: the iGPU in the "F" SKUs is switched off by Intel, but in usual iGPU-enabled desktop mainboards it still draws its idle power from the mainboard. By cutting the iGPU power supply, we save 2-3W (no matter if "F" or "KF" SKU) in system consumption, which has an albeit slight but still overall positive effect on battery life and cooling performance.
Q: Can the XMG ULTRA 17 be operated without a dedicated graphics card?
A: Due to the omission of the iGPU, operation without an MXM graphics card is impossible. Even if the iGPU had been supported, all external display connections (HDMI, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt) would have been connected to the dedicated graphics card, so that it would not be possible to connect external displays in pure iGPU operation. A variant without a dedicated graphics card would therefore be a completely new project that goes beyond the scope of the XMG ULTRA 17. Current laptops with a powerful CPU, generous RAM equipment and without dGPU can currently be found in the SCHENKER WORK series, e.g. the WORK 15 and WORK 17.
Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 able to support SLI graphics?
A: No. The mainboard of the XMG ULTRA 17 has only one MXM graphics card slot. Support for SLI has been discontinued by NVIDIA for mobile platforms with the RTX generation. The last XMG laptop with SLI was the XMG ZENITH 17 from 2017 and 2018. Whether mobile SLI will return in the future is currently unknown, but for XMG ULTRA 17 in the 2020 edition it is definitely impossible.
SLI graphics was a double-edged sword anyway. Micro-stuttering could never be completely eliminated and the advantages of the new RTX architecture probably can't be implemented as well on dual chip solutions because the connection between the chips and the collusion in the driver is too narrow a bottleneck.
Instead of SLI graphics in the XMG ULTRA 17, in the case of the new NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER, the TGP of the dedicated graphics card was increased to a new maximum of 200W. So you pay for just one graphics card, but still enjoy groundbreaking performance. It actually goes against NVIDIA CEO Jen-Hsun Huang's infamous catchphrase: The more you buy, the more you save... ( ͡° ل͜ ͡°)
Q: Will this chassis allow upgrades to future Intel and NVIDIA generations, such as Intel Rocket Lake and NVIDIA Ampere and Hopper?
A: According to media reports, the LGA1200 socket and the Z490 chipset used in the XMG ULTRA 17 should also be compatible with Intel's planned 'Rocket Lake' generation. When and under what circumstances (and with what restrictions, if any) this will really apply, however, can only be said after the currently undated official launch of 'Rocket Lake'.
At NVIDIA, things look even less clear: MXM slot (pin assignment and power supply) and board layout (arrangement, height of the components to be cooled) are not fully standardized and NVIDIA may it again for future generations. Even if the technical conditions do not change much (e.g. 200W TGP, same MXM pinout and if differences in cooling groups can be compensated with thermal pads), full support on BIOS and VBIOS level is still needed to ensure energy saving measures, fan control and support of external display outputs.
Thus, no statement can be made yet as to whether future NVIDIA graphics chips can be retrofitted and officially installed in the 2020 edition of the XMG ULTRA 17. On the one hand, we do welcome subsequent (even unofficial) user upgrades and are keen to extend the longevity of our flagship products as much as possible. On the other hand, technical and logistical support for MXM upgrades has proven to be increasingly difficult in recent years, so we prefer not to make any generous promises in this regard.
Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 with Z490 chipset prepared for future PCI Express 4.0 support?
A: According to a report from Computerbase (Google Translate), some Z490 desktop motherboards are already promoting future support for PCI Express 4.0, even though Intel's current Comet Lake generation only supports PCIe 3.0. There are contradictory statements about the support of PCIe 4.0 on Z490 chipsets that is actually planned with Intel's planned successor generation 'Rocket Lake'. Furthermore, laptop mainboards have less headroom for overprovisioning than their desktop counterparts due to space and cooling considerations. Therefore, our current official statement is that we currently only guarantee PCIe 3.0, and do not anticipate that this will change later with a BIOS update for possible support of Rocket Lake CPUs.
If it turns out that Intel and our ODM can provide support for PCIe 4.0 on a future CPU, we would of course pass this on to existing customers free of charge. However, there is no guarantee for this at this time.
Q: Are there plans for future support of Thunderbolt 4 and USB 4.0?
A: Intel's next planned desktop generation 'Rocket Lake' may also include support for USB 4.0 and Thunderbolt 4, according to media reports. However, as this has not yet been officially confirmed by Intel, we are not able to comment on this yet. The same principles apply here as were already established for PCIe 4.0: Laptops have a higher integration and certification effort and less headroom for overprovisioning, so we have to be careful. With Thunderbolt 4, there is also the fact that this will in all likelihood require a costly re-certification by Intel, which then applies not only to the chipset itself but to the entire product (XMG ULTRA 17).
Our first laptop with USB 4.0 and Thunderbolt 4 support will most likely be a previously unannounced ultra-light notebook with Intel 'Tiger Lake'.
Q: Will the XMG ULTRA 17 also be available with AMD CPU?
A: Support for AMD CPUs in XMG ULTRA is currently not planned. This would require a completely new mainboard layout and also a different cooling system. AMD's support for mobile high-end projects (high development costs, relatively small quantities) is currently not well enough positioned. We are currently gathering our first experiences with AMD desktop CPUs on a laptop platform in XMG APEX 15.
AMD currently has a head start in synthetic multi-core performance, on the one hand due to the more modern multi-core architecture, but also quite considerably due to the use of 7 and 10nm manufacturing technology at TSMC. But despite 14nm+++, Intel remains the leader in single thread performance relevant to many applications and has a broader technical ecosystem with excellent OEM/ODM-level technical support and reliable availability of key components with short lead times. More background information is available in this article on Igor's Lab.
It is also quite possible that Intel has superior power-saving mechanisms which enable Intel's desktop CPUs to run at significantly lower power consumption in Idle and Office scenarios compared to their AMD desktop counterparts.
Intel has also significantly lowered CPU prices with the release of the "Comet Lake S" generation, which has significantly melted down the performance per Euro gap to AMD, especially in the high-end segment. The question of long-term outlook regarding the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership, e.g. firmware and driver support for future operating systems, long-term RMA rate) remains open for the time being.
Q: Are AMD graphics cards based on MXM planned for this chassis?
A: Currently there are no dedicated AMD graphics cards planned in our laptops. NVIDIA still has an excellent performance to power consumption ratio. We recognize that some customers may prefer to have an AMD graphics card (either because of brand affinity or because of AMD's open Linux graphics drivers). However, the argument that has already been put forward above for AMD CPUs comes into play here: lack of support from AMD and their toolchains unfortunately still prevents the necessary investment in development costs for AMD graphics in laptops. MXM is a very shaky standard anyway. The last time we were able to offer NVIDIA and AMD in parallel in one MXM card was in the XMG P703 in 2013. At that time, the MXM pin assignment of AMD and NVIDIA was slightly different, so that with an AMD MXM graphics card in a motherboard prepared for NVIDIA, for example, you had to accept certain limitations regarding the support of external HDMI 2.0.
To our knowledge there is not even an MXM reference layout for current AMD mobile chips available from AMD at the moment. In view of AMD's market strategy, which primarily focuses on the price-sensitive mass market (notebooks with integrated graphics or ULV CPU) or on scaling by extremely large, global partners (Apple MacBooks, Microsoft XBox, PlayStation 4, most recently also Acer) for solutions with high integration effort (embedded, mobile), the chances for the integration and standardization of AMD MXM graphics cards look relatively meager in our opinion for the foreseeable future.
But even those who do not buy AMD graphics today can rest assured: NVIDIA feels the market pressure from AMD in the desktop area and reacts accordingly. It was probably not without reason that NVIDIA enabled support for external monitors with AMD FreeSync (VESA Adaptive Sync) in their driver in early 2019 - both for desktop cards and external notebook connections. This means that NVIDIA has partially moved away from the vendor lock-in of its proprietary G-SYNC technology.
Overall, the strength of AMD (including its APU units, which compete with NVIDIA's lower entry-level segment) is a massive innovation driver for the large companies that are still considered world leaders. This in turn benefits the buyers of the XMG ULTRA 17 with NVIDIA GeForce RTX graphics. They benefit, for example, from the development and broad game engine support of extremely promising technologies such as DLSS 2.0, with which NVIDIA's GeForce RTX cards with hardware-integrated Tensor Core units still have a clear technological advantage over AMD.
Q: Are there plans to support Intel 'DG1' (formerly 'Xe') graphics?
A: According to media reports, Intel's first dedicated graphics card is currently primarily designed for the highly specialized 'enterprise' market. With our quite good contacts to Intel (both locally in Europe and on the corporate level in the USA and Taiwan), ever since the first rumors about 'Artic Sound' (Intel's original code name for dedicated graphics) emerged, we've been pushing at various conventions and meetings for support of the MXM standard and extensive compatibility with NVIDIA's high-end technical requirements as a gateway to quickly build market share in the mobile sector and introduce a varied audience of high-end enthusiasts to Intel's new dGPU technology.
But considering the fact that the DG1 graphics technology will also be used as integrated graphics in the upcoming ULV generation 'Tiger Lake', as well as Intel's tendency in recent years to prefer to create their own, customized and trademark-protected standards (e.g. Thunderbolt, Optane hybrid memory, Compute Card, Compute Module, Compute Element), we don't hold out much hope for MXM support of dedicated Intel graphics in the coming years.
This information is purely based on our experience and deduction of public available information. We do not have any official information from Intel about their long-term plans on dGPU graphics in laptops one way or the other.
Q: Can I install the new RTX 2080 SUPER MXM card in my 2019 XMG ULTRA (or earlier)?
A: The RTX 2080 SUPER is specified for a maximum power consumption of 200W. Previous editions of the XMG ULTRA series (with GTX 1080 and RTX 2080) were specified for a maximum power consumption of 150W. This applies to both the cooling and the power supply on the mainboard.
The VBIOS is provided by NVIDIA and cannot be modified. NVIDIA also does not provide an API to optionally reduce the TGP if necessary. An upgrade from older editions of the XMG ULTRA series to the new RTX 2080 SUPER is therefore categorically almost impossible. If someone has a realistic approach to support such a project with special tools and skills, we can support such a project with spare parts (e.g. heat sinks, case covers) and technical documentation. Please send your request via PM.
So much for the FAQ in the first edition. More questions will surely be added in the next weeks.
Pre-order XMG ULTRA 17 now!→ XMG ULTRA 17 on Bestware.com
Questions to the community:
- Which CPU and graphics card would you configure in XMG ULTRA 17?
- For which primary purposes are you considering purchasing the XMG ULTRA 17?
- How much time would you invest in optimizing your RAM configuration (frequencies, latencies) and which concrete application scenarios should benefit from this?
- Which features would you like to see on the firmware side?
- Which peripherals would you like to bundle with the XMG ULTRA 17?
- What special services can we offer you around the XMG ULTRA 17?
We thank you for your attention and are looking forward to your feedback!
AMD Gaming and Input Lag Responsiveness Omega Guide V3
I have lived with input lag on my Ryzen build for 2 years but had IL(Input Lag) for 4 years due to windows 10. I had no clue why I had so much IL in all of my games(it's actually system lag in general) compared to my previous FX and Athlon builds. After 2 years of research I have some solutions that may help you.
After giving away my old builds I have decided, I must go back. I bought some FX parts for cheap included with an r9 270 and have finally determined that my Polaris GPU the RX 580 8gb has an insane amount of IL. Casual gamers/users will not notice but competitive gamers who play FPS's, Fighters, Racing games will most definitely notice. The inability to hit a target, or react to an attack or corner is all directly linked to input lag. And those of you input lag deniers get the hell out right now, this thread is not meant for you. You do nothing but attack and don't even contribute anything to the discussion. Look at some of the comments they send me:
Hurr durr, there's no such thing as input lag! It's all in your head! There's no difference between 144hz and 5fps! The Human Nose can only taste 2 colors!All of these criticisms stem from "THESE TWEAKS ARE GOING TO FUCK UP YOUR COMPUTER!" But where the hell does any of these tweaks broken anyone's computer?? People have been doing this stuff like disabling HPET for years and there's not a single case where IT PHYSICALLY BREAKS THE COMPUTER. Overclocking is an actual dangerous approach to improving your system yet no one criticizes that? "Oh NO, I used 1 or 2 tweaks and it made my performance worse! Whatever shall I do? HELP I'VE FALLEN AND CAN'T GET UP"
"You also reacted really poorly and aggressively to criticisms of your ideas. Look at the removed comments in these old posts:"
- A whole lot of "tweaks and fixes" but not a lot of substance. Almost every "fix" ends with the good old "Maybe placebo but it feels different to me". One of the fixes made by another poster for Windows "optimization" has been proven moronic as all he wants you to do is disable features and edit registries he has no idea about. But hey, atleast it seems to be more responsive?
- Well now you have completely convinced me, your subtle way with words and your impeccable logic. I apologise that I didnt believe your fixes. You must be the top dog in the kindergarten you go to, very persuasive. I'm gonna go fuck up my Windows registry just for you :)
- Okay, drink virgin blood everyday and stick a needle up your asshole once each 1st and 3rd friday of every month to reduce the risk of testicular cancer. Might be a placebo but if you don't have a better suggestion, shut up and do what I say! Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
- Most of this "input lag" nonsense is all in peoples heads, Windows 10 had no more input lag than windows 7 or 8, one CPU has no more input lag than another above a certain performance level, obviously if you tried to run windows on a low clocked dual core it would lag for example but high clocked, high IPC modern multicore chips? Nah It's all in your head
- Here comes the placebo input lag schizo again.
- This must be a chemically induced post.
- OP is tweaking on something other than his hardware. Drugs are bad.
Turns out there is input lag differences for CPUs and GPUs! As tested by Tech Yes City with a 1000fps camera, the Ryzen 2700x gets much less input lag than 9900k in desktop and workbenches. HOWEVER, the 9900k and Xeon 1680 both get much lower input lag in CSGO than the 2700x. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsbVSknUK7IThere may be other Polaris GPUs that also have IL(Input Lag) but me and some other people have all confirmed there is IL in the 580 and not just from one brand either(Mine was XFX RX 580 8B XXX Black Edition):
- a. https://community.amd.com/thread/235028
- b. https://www.reddit.com/AMDHelp/comments/9wqxx3/high_input_lag_after_upgrading_to_rx580/
- c. https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/input-lag-after-i-upgraded-to-an-rx-580.3460461/
- A great input lag reduction came from upgrading to the new Windows 10 1903 or 1909. I used windows 7, Regular Windows 10 1500s-1776 windows LTSB 2016, windows 10 LTSC 2019 all of them had the same lag. No matter how much I reinstalled it doesn't change the amount of input lag on my Ryzen(s). Using the new 1903 scheduler reduced my input lag by a noticeable amount. It eliminated that English keyboard language input lag bug I had and beyond. That 20% scheduling performance increase from windows 1903 claim does hold water. I have not tried 1909 but I'm sure it'll be even better.
- As I recall, most of the IL for games came from around October 2016 when Windows 10 changed the way their dwm.exe worked. You have to disable full screen optimization in order to have normal performance in applications now, and it affects both alt tabbed and fullscreen applications.
This is not just a Ryzen exclusive tweakThis works on most if not all computers. So Disable It. https://www.reddit.com/leagueoflegends/comments/7drusz/psa_make_sure_to_disable_fullscreen_optimizations/
- Lhun's guide
- r0ach's guide
- Windows 10 Language Spyware Bug You have to change your language to English Philippines or English Israel while you remove the other language packs. English US and English UK seem to be laggy.
Combining these 2 Guides have ascended me from a mere mortal back to reclaiming my throne. It is as if the sun and moon kissed. Just tested it for a few hours on my FX build and I was getting headshots, drifting corners, and counter crushing street fighters like nothing. Back then when I had input lag, I always feel like my game engine was like a second behind. Now I regained my mojo and I haven't even installed AMD GPU drivers yet! However there is much more testing to do. I basically turned off everything HPET, C6 state, C1E, Cool n Quiet, CSM, SVM, Spread Spectrum, USB 3.0 Legacy USB, Serial Port, everything but audio and APM master mode. I might try enabling legacy mouse, CSM Legacy, or a number of other combinations because some settings directly affect how the mouse move on certain motherboards. I can see why overclockers can usually feel a difference; it's not just because they are disabling features for a stable overclock, but they are reducing input lag in the process!
Can confirm, that by resetting all the BIOS settings to Load Optimal Defaults, I have felt the system is more sluggish and has more stutters. Will test this out on my Ryzen build later. :)Edit: Turning off APM master mode feels terrible and introduces stuttering(AM3+ Boards).
Other huge tweaks that affect input lag:
- Your monitor settings. Just test out different settings: gaming modes, natural modes. I know for my BenQ monitor has this feature called AMA settings that changes performance significantly by changing the ms response time. Make sure to google your monitor optimizations too, there's loads of things you can discover. https://www.reddit.com/Amd/comments/ax4838/attention_display_port_users_i_might_have_a/
- Your monitor cable. DP Users can sometimes fix their stuttering, blacking out, or input lag problems with this method.
- Process Lasso will help especially for Ryzen CCX performance. Just installing it and leaving it on at default(open at startup) is just fine, you will notice that your system is snappier just by having it on. There are however other things you can do such as Disabling SMT or managing Affinity for certain Applications. For Process Lasso on Ryzen I set my game to the primary cores(Disable SMT). And on other apps I set them on secondary cores(odds). So it would look like this on a 1600: Game 0,2,4,6,8,10 and other apps like chrome would be 1,3,5,7,9,11. Not only did this improve scheduling and responsiveness on older windows versions by 50% but increased FPS by around 40~ as well. However you have to remember FPS does not mean everything. https://www.reddit.com/BattleRite/comments/97vv24/serious_performance_boost_on_ryzen_with_project/
- Turn off Unnecessary 10 features. Many times these hog up resources, processes, threads, or even Bandwidth.
- Use this TimerResolution tool to set your timer to 0.5. Starting at 27:20 Panjno shows you what it does and how to use it.
- Disabling CCX with process lasso may also decrease IL. I have not yet found all the CCX disabling methods, especially since the way windows and agesa configures it changed after may 2019. Here are some CCX methods for Ryzen 3000 series.
Cores on ryzen 3k are numbered by their physical cores, with their smt pairs coming after that so core 0,8 1,9 2,10, etc. should be all the same cores ht pair on a 3700/3800x on a 3600 its 0,6 1,7, 2,8 etc. on a 3900x its 0,12, 1,13, etc. - this all is important from what i know, depending if you have 3-core ccxs (6 and 12 core parts) or 4-core ccxs (8 and 16 core parts), itll be just the 3 consecutive cores 0,1,2 3,4,5, etc. or 0,1,2,3 4,5,6,7 respectively so say you want to bind it to 1 ccx on a 3700x, youd set the affinity to core 4,5,6,7,12,13,14,15 for a 3600 itd be 3,4,5,9,10,11 for a 3900x itd be 3,4,5,15,16,17 and for a 3950x itd be 4,5,6,7,20,21,22,23 ccx structure on a 3600: (0,1,2,6,7,8),(3,4,5,9,10,11) ccx structure on a 3700x: (0,1,2,3,8,9,10,11)(4,5,6,7,12,13,14,15) ccx structure on a 3900x: (0,1,2,12,13,14),(3,4,5,15,16,17),(6,7,8,18,19,20),(9,10,11,21,22,23) ccx structure on a 3950x: (0,1,2,3,16,17,18,19),(4,5,6,7,20,21,22,23),(8,9,10,11,24,25,26,27),(12,13,14,15,28,29,
- This is how CCX could be configured on First and Second Gen
- Completely Disable Game DVR Bar Turning it off is not enough, you may need to completely disable it. Works for many people.
- Disable Focus Assist in Windows 10.
- Your application settings: Disable Fullscreen Optimization on win 10 or aero for win7.
- Language Setting IL Bug: I had to change keyboard language from English(US) to English(Philippines). I assume it has something to do with their spy/bloatware. I was even using Win 10 LTSC 2019 1809. Then again I felt the same lag on my dual boot win7. Can confirm the input lag is on English Canada as well. So the best I tried is English Philippines.
- Turns out it might not be random. Another user apparently feels it too on US. He changed to his to US India(I'm assuming English India) and it felt better for him. However I'm not sure he is still using US Keyboard. I use US keyboard with Eng Philippines.
- Set CSM to Legacy or Disable it in BIOS. For me, it felt great on my x370 prime-pro with just legacy everything, my system felts snappier but may be placebo. This is why Lhun and Roach added them to their guides. You should definitely test whether CSM off or just Legacy on feels better.
AMD GPU Tweaks:
- Disable HDCP Support. May reduce input lag but some 480 and 580 users need this if they have the mouse lag problem. (It has already been patched, but you never know.)
- Have Chill or Anti-Lag as the only things to have on(depending on what game you play.) Some games require uncapped fps with anti-lag on or some games work better with chill only so it's up to you to test them out for yourself.
ExamplesOverwatch: Chill on, everything off. Paladins: Anti-Lag on, uncap FPS.
- Before chill and anti-lag existed my r9 270x and r7 370 both performed very well no input lag at all but switching over to rx 580 I felt some strange lag. Chill or AntiLag for RX 580 is really amazing. Night and day differences.
- So my Best Radeon Settings are Disable Freesync, Disable Enhanced Sync, and enable Chill or Anti-Lag. However if you have better configuration suggests or any other combinations you want me to test out, just tell me.
- HDMI has less input lag than DP, and of course VGA has the least lag.
Tin Foil Tweaks
- This is a rare case, but sometimes your home's electricity/grounding can cause input lag even jittery mouse
- Your OS settings/registry/ect.
- Disable Nagles and set System Responsiveness ect, Fortnite especially felt much better after these tweaks.
Whenever someone is suggesting a change to \Games they always say: "In the same Registry hive as the above tweak, you can also change the priority of Games. To implement this tweak, go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Multimedia\SystemProfile\Tasks\Games and change the following registry values:
“GPU Priority” change its values to 8 for gaming.“Priority” set to 6 for gaming."(I don't feel it's any different form default.)
- MSI Utility. You can configure MSI line interupts manually but MSI utility just so much more convenient.
The utility was updated recently and now you can add priorities towards each device as well, however I just don't know which settings are the most beneficial yet, just don't change the MSI mode of your OS drive. Before you use MSI Utility, you have to make a system restore checkpoint first. This is due to if you change the mode of your Sata or hard drive devices to MSI mode your OS will not boot anymore. If system restore doesn't work, this video helps to restore your registry but you can also just make up your own backup.
- Disable Control Flow Gaurd(AT YOUR OWN RISK)
- Disable Audio
- Set PCIE Gen settings to Gen 2 instead of 3.
- Kill atiesrxx.exe
Ending Notes: Yeah it is "placebo" but I can certainly tell the difference as a competitive gamer. If we could feel the difference between V-Sync on and off, why is it so farfetched that I can feel differences in these tweaks?
It's been PROVEN that these input lag differences Do Exist and coincide with my findings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsbVSknUK7II usually rank at least diamond or masters in all the games I played: Overwatch, League of Legends, SFV but for the past 2 years I couldn't really play any of them competitively because of some over arching lag in my system. I mean I Could play them but it's just disgusting to play with higher input lag and hurts my soul. First 3 hours after tweaking I finally moved on from diamond to masters in Overwatch and the difference is immediately noticeable if I switch back. Flipping through options I can definitely tell the difference. It might just be better frame delivery or better consistency but whatever It is, it makes my system more responsive in desktop or games. There is however still more testing to be done.
Quote: Originally Posted by r0ach
There is no fix. Windows XP was a hardware accelerated desktop, then Win 7 wasn't, then Win 8.1 was again. This is why desktop cursor movement vs exclusive full-screen 3d mode feels the same in Windows 8.1 but not Windows 7. What's bizarre is Nvidia doesn't support Windows 8.1 on 2060-2080 series but does on 1600 series. I refuse to use Windows 10 New World Order edition myself. It's Microsoft attempting to transition to a fully locked down, Apple-style OS, and I would use it solely as a game box and nothing else due to that, but cursor movement is worse than Win 8.1, so I have no use for it at all.Reply: By RamenRider
Windows 10 pre October 2016 was actually great for input lag and gaming, kinda like 7 and 8.1. Before they forced in the Windows Optimization feature. They did something so horrible that de-synchronized the desktop mouse movement and in game mouse movement forever. Before I remember changing the display scaling, such as 100% magnification to 125%, and it would affect the mouse movement or dpi in game. It was amazing, it was almost like cheating as if the magnification increased the hitboxes; or just adjusted the dpi resolution to make it easier to move/accelerate. Worked for Windows 7 and 8 as well. Whatever it was, it was a slice of heaven.This would mean I need to also test out Windows 8.1 for gaming performance.
Back to talking about the input lag defenders.
Look how they even attack and downvote this guy asking the same questions!
It'd be great to stop sharing these tips unless they can be proven. It has gotten so bad that if you google "input lag ryzen" the links ranked first and second are literally posts made by you. These posts probably resulted in other new users believing in false behavior of ryzen processors such as this https://www.reddit.com/Amd/comments/egdiw9/is_it_true_that_ryzen_has_more_latencyinput_lag/This poor guy is just asking a question and everyone is berating and downvoting him for no reason? You don't see anything wrong with this? Maybe it's not me or anyone else curious that's in the wrong. Turns out all of those naysayers were proven wrong in that thread when Tech Yes released his video a few month later! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsbVSknUK7I
Oh the IronyFinal Notes
I suspect the power saving features and are still affecting gen ryzen. Will test out what happens if I disable them along with\without HPET. I have tested GTX 970 with my Ryzen but the difference is negligible. The Windows 10 1903 upgrade was much more significant. I did try out default AMD GPU drivers that did not include chill and anti-lag but there is no noticeable difference; same rules apply, as turning off enhanced sync feels better, but the only real major changes are at the hardware level. Switching back to R9 270 made the biggest difference because in performance, because the RX 580 IL even affects people with Intel. https://community.amd.com/thread/235028. I also would love to test out Ryzen 2 differences as well, but I do not have much time or money anymore as I am back in school. Hope this helps though.
EDIT: Windows 10 might feel more sluggish since 1809 because they've permanently set QueryPerformanceFrequency to 10mhz instead of the smaller one we've had before. This is due to Intel's spectre and meltdown vulnerabilities. Dammit Intel ruining it for all of us. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/queryperformancefrequency-qpc-is-10-mhz-since/d0fb399d-5dfd-4a7a-af5f-220751953ad0
Just tested my FX build with Lhun and r0ach guides and it feels amazing. However parts of their guides conflict and everyone's motherboard is different, so I have to find my own path. Make sure to test out CSM Legacy, Disable Fullscreen Optimization, Disabling HPET(my asus x370 bios won't let me).